Aem ecu questions

[tlicense]

Just to make sure I've got this right....

If I get the AEM ecu and a FJO wideband 02 sensor, is it correct that the ecu can effectively run in a closed loop state?
Also somebody on the .net forum said that the AEM converts the ignition to wasted spark, and that if I wanted to run over 1 bar I would need something like the HKS twin power DLI. Is this also correct?

I'm thinking about running this ecu and also using the Blitz DSBC id III for boost. Is there any reason why this would be a bad idea? Can the AEM control boost better than the DSBC anyway?

Is there anything else I would need to run the AEM?

Oh yeah, one last question, have AEM managed to get any trac control on the ecu yet? I heard it was in development.

Many thanks

[Martin F]

As far as i know your assumption is correct, and the AEM does have a closed loop mode. How good the algorithms are to support this operation, i'm not too sure. The WBO2 (FJO or AEM) is also used to allow the unit to self tune, but again i'm not too sure how successful this may be.

Yes there is an issue with the Supra's ignition system when running the AEM at high boost levels as it uses wasted spark, and a HKS DLI seems to be one of the preferred solutions. However there is also a solution using coils from a LS1 (yank tank made by GM). I also noticed that AEM are providing there own solution. Take a look AEM EMS Products

I think running a boost controller as well as the AEM ECU is a good idea as you don't really want to have to hook your laptop up every time you want to switch to a higher boost setting (not very convenient at the traffic light GP!!!). Obviously your AEM would need to be tuned to respond to the higher boost level when selected so more mapping would be required. I know that one of the US guys was looking at feeding a switch into the AEM that would select between two boost levels and then be controlled by a solenoid on one of the existing outputs of the AEM. Not sure whether this ever materialised.

Yep you need a few other bits to fit the AEM, IAT sensor, 3Bar MAP sensor (5Bar is OK too) and a wideband with laptop to tune it. If you choose a proprietary MAP sensor you will need to have the sensor data to hand when maping.

Not sure whats happened about the AEM inclusion of traction control in their software. Maybe one of the other guys can tell us whether it has made it to release.

Not sure if you are aware but there is a support forum for the AEM EMS at AEM Forum

Also here's a copy of an email i have that you may find helpful.

1.? All of this information is available on the aempower.com forums.
2.? There is an install FAQ on the horsepowerfreaks.com website.? They
also sell all the sensors and connectors, etc. you need.
3.? You need a GM IAT sensor.
4.? If you want to run more than 18 psi of boost, you need a bigger MAP
sensor.? There is a 3 bar GM unit that works well if you are running
less than 28 psi.? AEM sells a 5 bar unit
5.? If you want the AEM to control your boost and you have a single
turbo, you need a GM boost control solenoid.? The AEM can control the
stock wastegate VSV as well.
6.? Don't forget the connectors.
7.? Here are the GM part numbers for the IAT, MAP, boost solenoid, and
connector pigtails, sorry don't remember which is which: 12102620
1997152 12223861 25036751 15305891 12102747.? They cost me about $120
shipped from gmpartsdirect.com.
8.? The AEM runs waste spark, though the latest version of the firmware
can use its coil signals to control a demultiplexer if you want an
engineering project.? To make waste spark work, you either need a CDI
like the HKS DLI with good stock coils or you need Derek's LS1 coil
harness setup and the LS1 coils from gmpartsdirect.? If you don't have
either, the LS1 coils and the harness are less than a DLI.
9.? Don't forget that you also need a wideband and a laptop to tune it.

Oolan Zimmer

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Martin F @ Oct. 07 2003,23:55)]As far as i know your assumption is correct, and the AEM does have a closed loop mode

Yes there is an issue with the Supra's ignition system when running the AEM

Obviously your AEM would need to be tuned to respond to the higher boost level when selected so more mapping would be required.

Why does the AEM need a wide-band lambda for closed loop? Why not use an el cheapo one, even the original?

Also, you shouldn't really need to do any 'extra' mapping for switchable boost levels. Just map to the highest boost level you are going to use and then if you flick the boost controller down to low boost then you're just running on an earlier part of the map. I may have mis-understood something though?

Other than that the AEM sounds similar to the F-Con Pro we have been using for a while. It also uses it's own AT, wideband and MAP sensors, although doesn't have the wasted spark problem. The other handy aspect is that the F-Con draws it's wideband data via a separate box called 'AF knock monitor' which as it's name suggests also monitors and displays knock levels.

The Pro self-learns both open and closed loop, and because it's piggy-back you also retain full fault code and diagnostic facilities, as well as air-con step up and all the other niceties. However, full fuel and ignition control is taken by the F-Con.

Sorry, not trying to turn this into a 'buy an F-con' thread but I'm just wondering why so many people are still making life hard for themselves. I've still yet to hear of an AEM that anyone has fully sorted. I'm sure the product will be awesome but I can't help feeling it was released a little too early.

Not trying to start a war here.

Regards,

[Martin F]

I don't think the wideband is needed for closed loop mode as i know that the AEM also takes an input from the stock narrow sensor as well. The wideband is required for self-tuning (whatever that may involve) and obviously engineer tuning on a dyno.

Good point about mapping for the higher boost level and leaving the lower one to run from that map.

Not knowing too much about the F-Con pro I would assume that one of the biggest problems is that it has to go back to dealer (not all HKS dealers can re-prog either) for any re-tuning. With the AEM and its software obviously there are more potential mappers (yes i know and bodgers as well!!).

I'm open to correction on this as i'm not sure of the features of the latest F-Con.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Martin F @ Oct. 08 2003,12:19)]With the AEM and its software obviously there are more potential mappers (yes i know and bodgers as well!!).

Agreed.

No point having a huge array of mappers for AEM though when none of them can seem to make the thing work properly..

I guess the F-Con is handy for those customers that simply want the job done now, properly, and don't mind using the few or so dealers that are able to map them (in the UK).

Regards,

[tlicense]

To be perfectly honest I had completely forgotten about the F-CON. Somebody did mention it and I did say I would bear it in mind, but then completely forgot about it.

So with that in mind, what kind of features/limts does the F-CON have? Being a piggy back computer does it simply modify the maps say +/- X% or does it have it's own maps and completely by-pass the stock ecu maps?

Also for a full installation how much would I be looking at roughly? Then AEM with all the top notch gubbins is looking round or about ?2250-2750.

Many thanks

[Martin F]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Nathan @ Oct. 08 2003,09:36)]Also, you shouldn't really need to do any 'extra' mapping for switchable boost levels. Just map to the highest boost level you are going to use and then if you flick the boost controller down to low boost then you're just running on an earlier part of the map.

Just had second thoughts on this. Wouldn't you run a different ignition curve for lower boost than the one you'd be running on high boost ?

I'm sure you could get away with more advance on the lower boost setting. Obviously i'm talking about WOT when you are out of closed loop.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (tlicense @ Oct. 08 2003,13:29)]So with that in mind, what kind of features/limts does the F-CON have? Being a piggy back computer does it simply modify the maps say +/- X% or does it have it's own maps and completely by-pass the stock ecu maps?

Hi,

The Pro doesn't really have any limits as regards to maps. It could be limited by your MAP sensor I guess and thats about it. You're right for asking though, and that is how the F-Con S operates, via the standard map. However, the Pro takes full fuel and ignition control away from the OE ECU completely which is why it takes a fair bit more work to set up and map than an F-Con S.

In short, the OE ECU is only left because it does a lot of real helpful stuff on many cars and HKS didn't really want to remove it. With the Pro they found a way of taking full control of the maps but without the aggravation of messing with diagnostics etc, or on some cars the alarm/immobilisation circuitry. It's the best of both worlds really. Some people still scoff at it because they feel that it's not a 'proper' stand alone system as it's often used as piggyback but in reality it's simply ignorance of the facts. The Pro is actually capable of being totally stand-alone anyway. We don't usually use it in this format though simply because there is nothing to be gained by doing it and often only something to be lost (on most road cars anyway).

Not sure how I could quantify it's limits without you asking me direct questions. It certainly won't have traction control facilites which, if the AEM is as good as the RaceLogic system, is a real bonus.

Price-wise you're looking at:

F-Con Pro : ?845
Supra wiring loom ?295.00
Air temp sensor ?75.00
4 bar MAP sensor ?98.00
AF Knock monitor ?495.00
Wide band lambda ?395.00 (NTK sensor)

Parts total: ?2203

Mapping cost could vary enormously depending on your particular application and whether we have any maps here which get us a lot closer than starting from scratch. We do have a few here but they are mainly for big twin/single cars.

I would allow 2 full days for fitting and mapping on average, but theres other factors like whether you have an auto or not (which involves more work on the loom), whether you have a UK or VVT-i spec (which may involve removing the airflow meter) and various other factors but we can nail down a more accurate price if we discuss in more detail.

Mapping charge here is ?75 per hour, and we work on an 8 hour day.

Say ?1200 for mapping and fitting on average.

Thats some ?3.5K but bear in mind this is for the whole setup which many people may not need to do in one hit. You could certainly lose the AF knock monitor and wideband for starters.

A serious system and may well be over-qualified for your needs at the moment but the bottom line is that the Pro will run anything from BPU to Top Fuel. In fact the HKS Drag cars are all fitted with them. As dedicated stand-alone.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,

Nathan.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Martin F @ Oct. 08 2003,16:43)]Just had second thoughts on this. Wouldn't you run a different ignition curve for lower boost than the one you'd be running on high boost ?

Lol, well thought.

In theory, yes. In reality, it wouldn't really be much different. Different enough to warrant the extra mapping cost or not? Hmm. As an example, lets assume you have big twins at 1.4 bar low boost, and 1.8 bar high.

The ignition and fuel maps have been mapped to 1.8 bar.

You can forget about any difference in ignition map below about 4K rpm because up until that point the boost will be the same regardless of peak level set. Over that, at say 4.5K to 8K yes you could run a bit more advance but I really don't think you would see a big difference in power, or lag. We didn't pull the ignition back much at all at 1.8 compared to what it was at 1.4. Differences in ignition mapping is usually more noticeable at lower boost and rpm's.

It's a valid point though, and it's why all F-Cons have been fitted with on-board (and accessible) dipswitches to allow 4 different fuel and 4 different fuel maps to be changed at the flick of a switch.

The main thing is that theres not actually that many people who have a big difference between high and low boost, and obviously the smaller the difference, the less any ignition maps need to be. I only ever ran my car at 1.4 and didn't have any need for switchable boost at all but I guess that some drivers would, for example for track use or drag use. You could have a road, track, drag (and maybe Wife) map all in the one F-Con if you really wanted too but in reality, for road use, on road cars, with road conditions, most don't even bother.

Good point though.

Cheers

Nathan.

[wez]

Hello All,

I currently have the AEM installed in my almost standard J-Spec and it cost alot less that 2500 quid, I can also confirm that a wideband is only a fine tuning tool and is it not required for the running of the car and that an HKS DLI is required if you want to run boost higher than a BAR due to the ignition being switched to waisted spark.

I have now had it installed in my car for about 2 months and have had now show stopping issues that I haven`t been able to resolve myself and I am new to tuning.

The AEM also has all the functionality of a boost controller which includes boost switching, you can if you want wire up a normal switch and mount it in the car, this alters the boost target from whatever you are running on the standard map to a new target level, I have not tried this myself yet as I am still running just under a BAR.

I decided to go for a HKS DLI (should be here soon hopefully) as there have been issues with the LS1 coils and connecters and the HKS DLI has been running on cars with over 700hp so shouldn`t be an issue for most people. The AEM CDI is more expensive as you would have to go for the 8 channel to get full energy to each coil.

If you have anymore questions let me know, Paul whiffin also has one on his car which is over 600hp.

Cheers

Wez