Hybird turbo's

[chiefgroover]

Has anyone got experience of hybird turbo's on a UK supra?, the replacements from HKS and BLITZ etc I know are very good, but looking for a more economical alternative could there be a maker of hybird turbos with a proven record of more power and reliability in the UK?.
http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/outahere.gif

[EmmaG]

Hi

I believe Gavin has/had hybrids on his UK car.

[Nathan]

Are your OE turbos goosed then?

[alex h]

Hybrids are an ok solution, but now with Liverpool and Victoria's low insurance deals (ie they don't care what mods you have as long as when you claim for them you have the proof you had them) small single's are a definate alternative.

Personally I would buy an e-manage or FconV, Boostlogic Single (T-61) and uprate your fuel system to use ~650cc injectors. This should cost about 5k but to use the hybrids you'd have to uprate the j-spec fueling systems anyway which is a large chunk of the cash.

Hybrids will work very well and you can obviously run them at low boost and not shell out on the fuel system - but I don't think you'd find anyone recommend doing half a job http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Ideally you will need - 2x Hybrids or 1x T-61
1x 650+cc fuel system (Injectors, rail (possibly), fuel pump(s), new fittings, and if you were to get that I'd go for an adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator.
1x Fuel/Timing computer (e-Manage or FconV) + mapping time (?/h)
1x New SMIC or an FMIC
1x BOV (SSQV from HKS is best IMO)
1x EGT Gauge
1x Boost Gauge
1x Decat Pipe Set

Now the optionals are;
1x Aquamist Water Injection,
1x Oil Cooler Kit
1x WideBand 02 sensor
1x BIG BRAKES! http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif UK Spec or better

Think that covers it - hope I haven't scared you off http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif What you can gather from this though is that the buying of they turbo's pails in comparison to the purchase of everything else. If your turbo's arn't knackered I'd work on buying all the other things first...then buy the turbo system when you're ready.

[Martin F]

Quote[/b] (alex h @ June 09 2004,08:59)]Hybrids are an ok solution, but now with Liverpool and Victoria's low insurance deals (ie they don't care what mods you have as long as when you claim for them you have the proof you had them)
This is not a new policy. They have had that stance for about a year now.

However nobody seems to know what their policy is come pay out time.

[alex h]

Don't crash then http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif err Don't crash if it's going to be your fault http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Martin F]

Doesn't make any difference if your fully comp. You have to deal with your insurance company first and then they will try and recover from the 3rd Party. So your claim will be dictated by your own insurance companies policies.

Don't AMHIK http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif (not that i had any mod issues as they were declared!http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[chiefgroover]

Are your OE turbos goosed then? [QUOTE] OE turbo's are in excellent order. Alex, my car is a low mileage UK model, with dragger, double de cat, blitz sbcid, and a fmic. e manage is next. Just considering more power. I hope this thread does not get hijacked. The subject is hybirds, single's dont appeal, some memeber must have some experience of them?. http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Nathan]

How much power would you ultimately be happy with, and can you write down a full ist of your mods so far (and any you are likely to do in the immediate future)

EDit: Sorry, just seen you listed them already- just an answer to the first Q then :-)

Cheers

[alex h]

OK if you're going Hybrid then yes you need the e-manage with all it's options. Mohd in the US has managed to fit one to a US spec and there is a long document on it..this is in essence the same as the UK car.

Hybrids take a little longer to spool but are definately a nice upgrade. They tend to top out at about 480Bhp and the 1/4 miles tend to improve a little with the mph across the line showing the most improvement. You'll need an egt gauge to check that your exhaust is able to deal with the hybrids and I would expect they will work best at about 1.4bar. There are different specs of Hybrids out there. Personally I would go for a middle spec to offset the lag against the max power. Stage 2 or 3 Hybrids.

They bolt straight in as long as you use UK spec original turbo's to create your hybrids. You cannot use j-spec hybrids on your UK car.

The UK's have better wastegates so you will still have controllable boost.

What else would you like to know?

[Nathan]

Quote[/b] (chiefgroover @ June 09 2004,09:53)]I hope this thread does not get hijacked. The subject is hybirds,
Albatross?

http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'll get me coat.

[Nathan]

Quote[/b] (alex h @ June 09 2004,13:25)]I would expect they will work best at about 1.4bar.
Hmm....I'm not convinced that the hybrids will show any more power at 1.4 bar than at 1.3 (which is what we run) TBH. EGT's would certainly need looking at. And throwing more fuel in to bring them down isn't playing with a straight bat http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'm also not convinced that hybrids will give 480 genuine bhp either. I would personally quote @ 440~450bhp which isn't much more than OE turbos at 1.2 bar as we know but then I've always said that if your OE turbos are shot then rebuilding to hybrid spec will give you a reliable setup that will happily run at 1.3 bar all day long, and bring inlet temps down to boot.

It's the fact that you will be removing 2 perfectly good turbos to do this that I find hard to swallow. It's your cash and you are pulling the strings but ultimately I'd be reluctant to shell out the best part of 3K for say a 30bhp increase when your existing turbos are fine.

I'm not making a very good salesman am I?

Maybe I should take on board the 'other' traders marketing policies of just saying 'Buy these they are the bollox' whilst at the same time making out I'm the saviour of Supra tuning http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/killingme.gif

[alex h]

Nathan - I'm not arguing...1.3-1.4 with a decent FMIC won't see much difference. Ian got a 470bhp crank *estimate* (from a dyno) and I believe you could make more with the right tools, but I did say this was the most you could expect - 450 is indeed more common. This was at about 1.4bar and the EGT's below 900.

I don't think Hybrids are worth it now (as single's are coming down in price) but if you like the sequential system then it makes sense to go hybrid when your turbo's blow.

[chiefgroover]

OK, the hybirds are going to be a bit of a waste of time it seems, as I rolling roaded @ 453bhp with 543lbs/ft Thursday week ago (20c outside temp, 16.2psi on Cartoyz nice new Dyno V-Tech rolling road), if i could figure out how to load the test sheet into this e mail i would. Ideally to break the 500bhp figure would be grand, but not if it costs ?3000 up for 50bhp, as the car goes quite nicely as it is. I suppose a re tuning of the fuel and timing might give a slight improvement for little cash. I am close to the point when I shall stop modifying the car and just drive it and try and be content lol. Every time I mention my power test, it is met with "yeah, pull the other one", even though it was done on a new top class r.road , by TRUE-FORCE who sent 8 guys from Poland who spent 1 1/2 weeks setting it up, and cost close on ?60K. I still expect the "naw.........no way" but its amazing how small views are on this subject.
Anyway thaks to you guys for the reply's, much appreciated.! http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[alex h]

If your's is an auto it would explain the odd results. Auto's are very hard to dyno accurately no matter how much money is spent. The black stuff is the best dyno http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Tis ammusing that the no.s are the same just in a different order http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif What RPM's and AFR's did you get?

Sorry if it annoys you that I doubt the validity dyno. If you 1/4 in the low 12's I'll take it all back http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[GavinL]

Quote[/b] (alex h @ June 09 2004,15:52)]If your's is an auto it would explain the odd results. Auto's are very hard to dyno accurately no matter how much money is spent. The black stuff is the best dyno http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Tis ammusing that the no.s are the same just in a different order http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif What RPM's and AFR's did you get?

Sorry if it annoys you that I doubt the validity dyno. If you 1/4 in the low 12's I'll take it all back http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Agreed, very suspect figures for a stock turbo car.

[Nathan]

Interesting. Can you tell me at what RPM the 543lbs/ft was seen at?

Never heard of any of those names in the rolling road game, and rolling roads don't get any cheaper than 60K. Our new one will be twice that http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Like Alex says, we're not here to rubbish figures, just to try and validate them http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[chiefgroover]

best thing i can do is post the result in here, is someone can tell me how to add a picture to these threads. Then you guys can tear it apart if you like. However considering that the car is 326bhp std, add the stage 4 tuning silimar to TDI's web sites, giving as Nathan claims 112bhp over stock thats 438bhp, add the FMIC and thats prob a good 15bhp then 453bhp sounds very realistic. Take a look at the TDI page on the MK4 Supra. Nathan is well known for his honest and realistic power figures. Max torque (dont have sheet in front of me) was at around 4250rpm, but i'll check it when i get home. I was using that cool blue 76 octane booster stuff that week, not that i think it will have made much difference. I would think any r.road freshly set up by factory tech's, would be pretty accurate. I did 3 runs each one got lower in power as the car heated up. I dont think i mentioned I was using HKS s40i plugs @ 1.1mm, hks panel filter also. Dont know the 1/4 times, i'll have to wait until i get somewhere with reliable and accurate timing. I'd like to try the r.road in the winter on a brass monkey day, as since last year fitting Nathans lovely intercooler kit it is noticeably sharper when temp hits below 4c.
I'll be roading the car again in a few weeks time, see what figures I get then.

[EmmaG]

Hi,

To attach a pic, firstly make sure the picture is saved on your hard drive. Click on the add reply button and you should see at the very bottom (left hand side) it says file attachments, click on the browse button and locate the file on your hard drive then add reply.

[Martin F]

Chief, if you have trouble posting the dyno plot email it over and i'll attach it.

[alex h]

Auto or Manual then?

[Nathan]

Quote[/b] (chiefgroover @ June 09 2004,18:16)]
Quote[/b] ]However considering that the car is 326bhp std, add the stage 4 tuning silimar to TDI's web sites, giving as Nathan claims 112bhp over stock thats 438bhp, add the FMIC and thats prob a good 15bhp then 453bhp sounds very realistic.

Hmm... my conservative answer to that would be I don't really add power at all when trying to sell intercoolers, I usually state that they maintain the power you would find on say your first blast on a winters day throughout the year, wheras you might lose a GOOD 30+ bhp in the summer on the stock intercooler at BPU. It's always a lengthy answer when someone asks me about bhp gained with the fitment of an intercooler, as if I just say 'well, between 0 and 30bhp' it sort of confuses people. I hope everyone here can understand where I'm coming from http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

So in short I would personally put your car @ 430bhp mark, and it should make that power pretty much throughout the year. I know the website says 438bhp and those are indeed genuine figures obtained by HKS USA, but I don't know if they were the best figures found after 100 runs or what so I personally tend to err on the lower side.

Quote[/b] ]Max torque (dont have sheet in front of me) was at around 4250rpm, but i'll check it when i get home.

Now this is where it gets interesting because IMO that is a pretty low rpm to get peak torque on a BPU car, and it's not that long after both turbos come online. However, if thats what they saw then that would indeed make 439bhp so we're pretty much bang on the money. It's a nice power figure, and at a pretty low rpm so I'd be well happy with that. It's obviously a little different to the 453bhp they quoted but we're not miles out which is why I wasn't questioning your original post, I was more 'interested' like I said, from seeing the 453/543 figures together.

Good stuff! http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[chiefgroover]

Here is the sheet. I was amazed at how close the peak power and torque rpm's are. I would rather have them a little further apart for a better spread of power. I think when BHP is in this area, 20bhp more or less is hard to detect while driving. I am not sure as to whether my re setting of the ECU the day before at the bottom of a long steep hill which i drove up flat out helped things or not? some tell me the car learns a better curve, some says it nonsense, maybe some of you guys could tell me does it really make any difference?.
The most amazing dyno sheet I have ever seen for a BPU supra is the one on www.suprastore.com, which makes mine look lame, but how the heck did they get that sort of power?
http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/outahere.gif

[chiefgroover]

manual !

[chiefgroover]

didnt work, Martin I have e mailed it to your address shown in your profile, please do the necessary for me.
I mind the days.............ahyes.........how sweet they were............when we didnt have all this electronic tuning, just a nice big essex V6, with swaymar holley and head conversion, optronic ignition, piper 285 cam, full janspeeed, powermax pistons, etc, so simple, so nice, so smooth around town, oh how i long for them again........ http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Martin F]

LOL, yeah but that would have been them carburettor things.

Here we go


http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/images/chiefs%20dyno.jpg

[EmmaG]

Could you make the picture any bigger, I am having problems reading it!! http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/killingme.gif

[chiefgroover]

my laser eye surgery was a waste, like Emma I cant see it, for goodness sake Martin we aint looking for the watermark lmao http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Nathan]

I'd say that was a ruddy nice graph personally. Not really much of a dip between No1 and No2 and then a right hard charge up to 4.5K. Peak power drops off a little early which is why I'd like to know what the AFR's were doing but other than that, strong as an Ox. A very healthy UK spec which should continue to make that power for a long time what with the 'proper' turbos not made from bathroom tiles http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Martin F]

Sorry guys my internet access is a little limited at the mo.

Will enlarge it later on

http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

As Nathan said quite a nice smooth graph.

[wez]

Nice graph, looks like you boost maybe spiking though as the power as Nathan said is tailing off a little early, with some fine tuning you should be able to hold that power for a little longer.

http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[alex h]

Which gear was used? 5th or 6th? I was under the impression dyno runs are best done in the closest gear to 1:1 which is 5th on a manual - however the speeds you run in the tests indicat you used 6th...

Would using a different (longer) gear upset the results. If not it's a nice graph indeed - you'll make a few j-spec runners jealous with that! http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[chiefgroover]

Thank you, one and all. Test was in 6th, forgot to remove the speed limiter until the last run, was hoping that would show 200mph, but i only run 265/35/18 on the back, not gearing it up enough. ! lol.
I dont know the afr or egt info. I would very much like to smooth out the torque to a flatter line which i think would be much more driveable on the limit. I am running standard boost on the first turbo, that really buggs me, but i cant figure a way to run both turbo's through an electronic controller, as when i tried many times, it just bled off back to standard. Seems the systems boost at high revs is controlled by the actuator on the large turbo. Right pain that is. E manage will prob be next, as its good value for money, and does all i will need it to do, as I dont think i'll tune it any further engine wise. Anyone know where there might be some 235/40/18 Bridgestone SO2's hanging around?, as they are long discontinued I am hoping someone will reply and say "yeah i have had a pair of those for ages in my rack!". (trying to avoid the SO3 until i really have to use them).
I'm off to do a bit more on the cars hi-fi, will post pics (if i ever get it to work) when all is finished.
Regards

[alex h]

There is a first turbo mod...which I have used. But it does require trial and error to test. Parts needed are 3 lengths of silicon hose a T piece and a bleeder T valve...here is a picture.

************************
Hmmm My Dynamic Image Posting is disabled...and I have no option to upload an image or attach it...and I'm an ADMIN! Oi MARTIN! Sort it out http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
************************

[Nathan]

Quote[/b] (chiefgroover @ June 10 2004,14:21)]
Quote[/b] ]Test was in 6th, forgot to remove the speed limiter until the last run, was hoping that would show 200mph

There really isn't any need whatsoever to use 6th gear on a Supra on the rolling road unless you're getting wheelspin. Apart from an overdrive possibly giving you odd results (a 1 to 1 ratio is far more preferable), dynos with rollers really don't like being anywhere near 200mph. Far too much metal inertia flying around. The roller drums themselves are usually OK up to about 150mph but over that...

Quote[/b] ]I am running standard boost on the first turbo, that really buggs me, but i cant figure a way to run both turbo's through an electronic controller, as when i tried many times, it just bled off back to standard. Seems the systems boost at high revs is controlled by the actuator on the large turbo.

The 'actuator' on the rear turbo is the sequential system actuator. When we fit boost controllers to BPU cars we often see at least 1 bar on No1 so you must have something going wrong somewhere. http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/down.gif

[Martin F]

Graph is back.

Alex - if you upload a jpg it should just display. Dynamic pics are not allowed for any users. (for bandwidth reasons)

[chiefgroover]

The top speed thing was just to see what it would do for fun, thats the only reason a 3rd run was done. OK who has fitted an e manage and tuned it? anyone got a dyno sheet to put up here?

[chiefgroover]

first turbo has been a bit gutless since last summer, maybe the actuator is weak, any idea where I can get a 1 bar one?

[Nathan]

No, sorry, we don't ever change them normally although our hybrids come with uprated ones as standard. An electronic boost controller works perfectly well at holding boost on a stock actuator TBH. Maybe someone has one somewhere gathering dust?

I also wonder whether re-mapping will give you much on stock turbos...again, another reason to see what your fuel is doing. If it's OK, then there wouldn't be much to be gained. Likewise, I'm not sure how much more ignition you could run on the car bearing in mind the thing comes on pretty strong as it is...

[wez]

With the AEM i use to run 0.9bar on turbo one and 1.1bar when both online using the standard boost control electronics.

[chiefgroover]

After experimenting with the Gain control on the Blitz SBC ID I find I can bring the second turbo in much softer, brilliant for twisting B roads where the sudden torque only slows me up with wheelspin. That really is a good boost controller.

[Nathan]

Nah, bleeds valves are what you want guv'nor.. http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[chiefgroover]

oh yeah, I have 2 of them fitted with no boost guage, just know when they feel right the boost is right lmao, if its not making tingling sounds, they you aint boosting enuf!.
Regards
PEI PLC
www.PistonExplodersInternational.com: http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[chiefgroover]

p.s. cant wait to get my 14.5:1 C/R pistons fitted to run 3 bar boost. http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Nathan]

http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Quality! I like the way you slipped in '2' bleed valves too. If I use 4 can I run more boost?

Oh, and boost controllers get confused on the Supra sequential system dontchaknow.. http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[chiefgroover]

4 bleed valves means its bleedin quick, 1/4 mile ought to be 4.2 seconds if you neck can stand the blast, last electronic boost controller I erd of disappeared in 1998 into some vacuum piping and hasn't found its way out yet, can you adam and eve it? I fink i'll fit 6 bleeders now, so if i can go airborne! http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Syed Shah]

Whats wrong with a manual boost controller? EBC is fine as a gadget, MBC does the job just as well.

[Nathan]

No it doesn't. Not nearly as well. Thats why me and Chief are having a good old laugh about it...

Edit: Ooops....I've just realised that you are probably on the wind-up as well...aren't you...? http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Ian C]

Thinking about this, the stock wastegate setup is pretty much "manual" as in "mechanical" because it's a sprungloaded wastegate that runs off boost pressure no matter what rpm or gear or throttle position etc you are at. Sooooo, why does this system work fairly spot on under all circumstances (when the car is stock of course) and yet a bleeder valve won't?

Having said that the bleeder valve I put on the EGBV loop on turbo 1 to up it's boost did wierd stuff seemingly depending on the weather and what colour socks I wore, just wondering if there is a simple explanation why the bleeder valve is apparently no good.

And, on a side note, do you really wind turbo 1 beyond 1bar of boost, Nathan? http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/shocked.gif Just suprises me from what I've experienced (a noticeable dropoff in power above 0.9bar).

Nothing meant as trollage, as I'm sure you know, just interested in the reasoning behind stuff http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-Ian

[Martin F]

Quote[/b] (Ian C @ June 14 2004,16:32)]?Sooooo, why does this system work fairly spot on under all circumstances (when the car is stock of course) and yet a bleeder valve won't?
Thats becuase there is a VSV that only allows boost pressure to act on the wastegate diaphragm at a specified pressure. So in essence you have your own electronic boost controller with the stock system.

Having that VSV on the wastegate actuator removes progressive opening of the wategate valve as boost increases. When the VSV switches the wastegate should open pretty rapidly and reduce boost pressure.

Obviously this is a simplified explanation as IIRC the wastegate VSV works on a PWM signal.

[wez]

Quote[/b] (Martin F @ June 14 2004,16:57)]Having that VSV on the wastegate actuator removes progressive opening of the wategate valve as boost increases. When the VSV switches the wastegate should open pretty rapidly and reduce boost pressure.

Obviously this is a simplified explanation as IIRC the wastegate VSV works on a PWM signal.
Exactly right and with the AEM you can control this VSV along with all the others.

As for the PWM this allows you to dictate how much air/pressure is allowed to act on the waistgate by varying the amount/rate the solenoid opens and closes.

http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Nathan]

Martin's got it right. The stock system, which even itself is pretty crude compared to an aftermarket boost controller, is still a LOT better in terms of boost control than a bleed valve which as you say pretty much give the boost they feel like depending on what colour pants you have on. The big downside is you can't play about with gain controls as Chief explained and this can have a dramatic effect on how and when the turbos spool. Having a decent boost control system also means they sit bang on whatever you tell them to which is fairly important when healthy Soops love 1.2 bar but can and will det on 1.3 (many will argue the toss because they can't hear it though)

As for going beyond 1 bar on No1 I agree, it will be working hard but we let them sit at what they want to TBH when we fit EBC's. It's not really worth playing about for X amount of time (well, not paying us to do it but the customer can if they want) to worry about 0.1bar on No1. It's not a longevity/reliability issue as far as I am concerned as Jap turbos can and do go pop when they feel like it and steels won't care at all. As for loss of performance, I don't agree although I accept that you may not actually make any more power at 1 bar as opposed to 0.9.

Trollage? You got long green wispy hair then?

[Nathan]

Quote[/b] (wez @ June 14 2004,17:04)]Exactly right and with the AEM you can control this VSV along with all the others.
Stock VSV's aren't really much good for anything other than stock boost IMO. They are slow to react and don't like being pulsed- in fact they are designed to be off or on really unlike say the HKS EVC stepper motor which really does shift.

In fact I'd wager that most drivers could tell the difference in boost response and peak boost hold with an EVC even only peaking on stock boost levels.

[chiefgroover]

What have i done? what have i started? lmao.
damm it, i'll weld the actuators closed and make a big ramp, hopefully i'll break through the earths atmosphere in the low 10's, lapping the moon at warp factor 9 on opposite lock leaving black doughnuts so watch the night sky for the banded moon!. Nat, Mr.Scott (after reaching warp drive) will e mail you the egt's and afr's from our built in satellite station, and if you think they a bit odd, we can beam you up for some fine tuning!.
Supra boost control...............thats a subject that could start a war, I'm glad we can laugh about it http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Syed Shah]

I still think a MBC is the way to go, as long as you have a boost guage, it is fine. Not to say it is any bettert han a EBC, but it does the job reliably and holds osst well, all you *need*, though not the gadget most *want*.

[Martin F]

Quote[/b] (Syed Shah @ June 14 2004,14:54)]MBC does the job just as well.

OK

Quote[/b] (Syed Shah @ June 14 2004,22:39)]Not to say it is any bettert han a EBC,

Hmmmmmm.

In fact i think there is quite a difference between an MBC and an EBC just like there is quite a difference between a ball & spring MBC and the traditional ?4.99 bleed valve.

A ball and spring MBC will still progressively open and allow pressure to act on the wastegate actuator just not to the extent of the bleed valve. Also how do you change the boost setting on an MBC ?

Maybe i'm fortunate enough that my car already came with the DSBC, but being able to floor it (once setup) and see the boost sit at 1.35Kg/cm constantly with very little fluctuation had me sold.

[Ian C]

I was under the impression that the stock wastegate VSV simply opened at a set pressure level to stop wastegate creep. It's either open or shut, it doesn't get pulsed. Is this correct or not? I mean, has anyone verified this by logging the signal, not just theoretically?

I have an Apexi boost controller and it can't hold boost to save it's life. The datalogging I've been doing shows, despite me setting it to 1.3bar and feeding it a reasonable duty cycle, a variance from 1.1 to 1.3bar under WOT in 3rd gear. I used to slag it off because of this but lately I've been thinking it's more to do with the hybrids outgunning the stock wastegate so much that even with the restrictor ring in place the boost fluctuates so much the boost controller doesn't really stand a chance of maintaining a set level http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Goalposts always moving and all that.

Bleed valve may well do the job, and is very tempting when you compare prices, but I'd still err on the boost controller side if your wastegate can flow enough.

-Ian

[wez]

With the AEM I was able to control the stock waistgate VSV using PWM and hold boost at a steady 0.9bar on turbo one and then 1Bar with both online.

http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

I am also planning on using the stock VSV with my single as I am currently using my right foot for boost control.

[Martin F]

Quote[/b] (alex h @ June 10 2004,14:59)]There is a first turbo mod...which I have used. But it does require trial and error to test. Parts needed are 3 lengths of silicon hose a T piece and a bleeder T valve...here is a picture.
I didn't realise that this mod is actually listed on MKIV.com as well.

First Turbo Boost Mod (http://mkiv.com/techarticles/ebv/ebv.htm)

[SKI]

I just had my car set up by C.W with a bleed valve and it holds boost perfectly at about 1.15 bar without exception.

Turns out (on a really positive note), according to Chris who test drove my car, that my concerns over T2 coming in late with a bloody great big whack where the result of the previous owner fitting hybrids at some point. Chris had a good mess under the bonnet and the car runs great. On the subject of hybrids I?ve never driven another Soop so I?m not really able to comment on how different they feel, although froma performance perspective I do seem a fair bit faster then other cars that I would expect to hold their own, regardless of my BPU. When Chris was explaining to me what he had done he said that there were some very odd things about my car, perhaps reflected in the fact that it wanted to boost up to 1.5 bar when it was first modified, fortunately this was immediately corrected after it scared the life out of me http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I also have RLTC fitted (by Chris who did a very tidy job), that really is the dogs bollocks especially in the wet, no more twitchy rear regardless of boost, would recommend it to anyone, Phil Wall (knows the system inside out) can do you a modified dat file for any situation, even snow for autos http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Nathan]

Quote[/b] (SKI @ June 20 2004,21:28)]I just had my car set up by C.W with a bleed valve and it holds boost perfectly at about 1.15 bar without exception.
Good stuff. Let us know what the boost does over a period of 6 months or so though...

[SKI]

Will do M8

I guess the crunch will be when the cold weather comes back in.....

Jeez... What am I talking about it's freekin frezzing today in Liverpool!

[Sharpie]

I ran with a MBC from Jan to July 03, then the car was off the road for 12 months but, since getting it back and ~4 weeks worth of MBC boosting, I have just switched to the SBC IDIII and Power Meter.

Only got it set up on Saturday but, the response feels much, much better and earlier. The MBC did the job and I had lots of fun but, my initial feelings are that the EBC was worth the $ http://www.mkivsupra.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Just need to have a play around with it bit by bit now.